@rohrkrepierer @philosophy
Lol. It makes me laugh when you materialist nihilists reach this point and call it "Jesus Fascism".
What happened, the Will to Power journey harder than you thought? Even Nietzsche had more respect for Christianity than that, and that's counting that he didn't really know about the Orthodox concept of theosis, or Orthodoxy in general.
Asceticism isn't exactly a family activity, & "freedom" is not only vague, but repulsive to the majority.
So Buddhism amirite?
@UncleIroh @rohrkrepierer I don't get why you're calling me a materialist nihilist. Can you explain what that means to you? I don't see myself as materialist or nihilist.
No, I was never on board with Nietzsche and Will to Power. My avatar is Schopenhauer ffs.
The answer IS asceticism...the self seeking its highest good through denial of itself in seeking for God. Doesn't matter if it's compatible with everyday "family" life (it is, just harder in that setting). It just is the answer.
@philosophy @rohrkrepierer
>Doesn't matter if it's compatible with everyday "family" life
Again, lol. Socially, it has to otherwise it's clearly not "the answer".
Reach the major milestones in life first - get married, start a family, develop a career, be known in your community - and then tallk to me about how compatible asceitism is with that, because if you can't then it's of no fucking use.
All the Orthodox Abrahamic religions have solved this by incorporating elements of asceticism.
@UncleIroh @rohrkrepierer There's no answer socially. People have to work this out for themselves. Your theosis is between you and God, and it's not a matter of a specific religion either...which is just an aesthetic for the process of unselfing.
Christianity is a fine path when it's understood properly. Paul didn't even understand it though. He thought it was about Jesus not having original sin because the belief of the day was that the soul was transmitted through the father's side. All wrong
@UncleIroh @rohrkrepierer Theosis IS the path, at least until unity. The next step is complete dropping of the self, not just the will. The character of Jesus was never the point...he's just the example of a fully human person who becomes non-person through thr hypostatic Oneness. And we all have the same destiny! That's the real bugger.
But this is theology way outside the Jesus Cult understanding of the process.
@philosophy @rohrkrepierer
The entire reason for Christianity's unparalleled global success has been that it is accessible, understandable and compatible with every level of cognition and all stations of life.
From the clinical idiot to the genius. Children, parents, ascetic monks, warriors.
Theosis is the answer and YOUR route is to monk it out. But the pro-social route in Orthodoxy is to onboard the concept from within families, learn through the Church and be supported in that journey.
@UncleIroh @rohrkrepierer This is the real thing I struggle with...the cognitive level.
I think this is the edge of my own ego. I want to speak truth and have it accessible to everyone...and anyone who believes the nonsense due to cognitive load I want to just call an idiot and condemn them.
I want to say "I need to look at this" but I just did. I need to give it up now. I think you might be right on this point and I see the point of it.
@philosophy @rohrkrepierer
> As soon as other people are involved, negotiations must occur and the will becomes involved. It's in silence that God is inevitably found.
This is the crux of the paradox.
Granted, monks in all faiths attest to the truth that the fastest & perhaps purest route to God is through silent asceticism.
And yet Monkhood is deeply social since it can only survive through others, can only be practised through negotiation with others.
And from this flows many things.
@philosophy @rohrkrepierer
Ideally, the energy you have for wanting to understand these things would have been recognized by elders with the same broad interest. You would have been directed towards a path that allows you to explore those things in depth.
And if the result was you spending 20 years in a cave, I suspect that your revelations would include lots of gratitude, compassion for others, and love. For ourselves and the messes we make of everything.
Even though everyone is retarded.
@UncleIroh @rohrkrepierer As if. I grew up in an apatheist (apathetic theist) family and all my early exposure to Christianity was through Baptists and Pentacostals, both of which are well into the retarded and incredibly wrong side of things. I spent my teenage years squarely in the materialist intellectual camp until I started to see the issues there. Now I belong to noone but the Truth. I've been obsessed with Truth since I was 12 years old.
@philosophy @rohrkrepierer
Makes more sense now in light of the Baptist thing. Personally, I consider Roman Catholicism and Protestantism Christian heresies.
You might like John Vervaeke's Meaning Crisis series. It's relevant that he also came from a Baptist background because it drove him deep into philosophy for much the same reasons as you.
Interestingly enough, his journey has all the signs of him making peace with Christianity through his recent conversations with an Orthodox bishop.
@UncleIroh @rohrkrepierer I consider all extant Christianity heresies, but Protestants certainly worse. Catholics messed up with introducing the "persona" as their explanation of the hypostatic union. Eastern Orthodoxy is workable though. Most Christianity today derives from St. Paul and the Alexandrian School. Paul, despite trying to show folks Christianity is not just for Jews, completely misinterpreted what the Christ is. Even Jesus misunderstood it. Only the risen non-person understood.
@philosophy @rohrkrepierer
The Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches are the true churches. Always have been.
@UncleIroh @rohrkrepierer And even they are heretical though. They all affirm that the man Jesus of Nazareth is the one and only God, like Egyptians believed about the Pharaoh or Shinto about the Emperor...which is just anthropotheistic paganism.
But this isn't the case. Jesus was a human person, first in unity with God and then after the resurrection...a non-person, devoid of Self, the same as a Buddha...in Hypostatic Oneness with God. An excellent example of perfect faith.
@philosophy @rohrkrepierer
And there you stand alone.
@UncleIroh @rohrkrepierer The moment before he cried, "Lord, why have you forsaken me?" he gave up his personhood, the sense of an individual self. Since up to that moment it is that self that saw God, he thought God had left him. But God didn't leave, of course.
It's tempting to say he became God, but that's the heresy. There was no more "him" to become. God Is. That's all you can say.
In this we are no different. No person can be God, but by giving up the self, God is revealed as All.
@philosophy @rohrkrepierer
You have fundamentally misunderstood theosis and divinization. If you believe that even a single person within the Eastern church has achieved theosis then I strongly advise you to reach out to an Orthodox scholar to clarify your misunderstanding.
As it stands, you are speaking heresy. You cannot change my mind on this.
@UncleIroh @rohrkrepierer The church has misunderstood this from the start. I get you've been trained to be intolerant of those that speak against the party line, but there's a paper trail running through the early councils that shows threats and political machinations at work in pushing what became the official view. It's all there. The man Jesus even discouraged worshipping him and would leave the crowds on such occasions.
A person can't be God. Only a non-person. I'll leave you be with that.
@philosophy @rohrkrepierer
I never thought I would meet someone who still seriously engages with the Christological argument that began in the 4th century AD and resulted in the first church schism that created Oriental Orthodoxy.
No shade at all. My advice would still be the same; engage with Christological scholars from both the Eastern and Oriental traditions.
Godspeed.
@philosophy @rohrkrepierer
They want it gone, but they know it doesn't work. People want God. They tried stamping it out in Soviet Russia and it just led to deeper faith.
So they have tried fomenting Reformations inside Catholicism (Vatican II), and in Islam ("Compassionate" Imams who are pro-LGBT and pro-feminist).
The CIA have played an enormous part in this, and Jay Dyer does a great job of deconstructing this. See his latest video:
@UncleIroh @rohrkrepierer Well, the no shade part is good to hear. I'm not sure if I'm saying the same thing as Cyril of Alexandria though (I think that's who led to the Oriental schism?). I honestly have a lot of reading to do to place things correctly as I've had my nose in Buddhism a long time trying to make sense of it as well.
I think I will engage scholars on this. I just need to find some that will hear me out.
@philosophy @rohrkrepierer
That's all anyone can do. And for what it's worth, I'm impressed you've actually given serious thought to ideas which aren't easy or popular.
Taking part in a philosophical and religious debate that is still active at over 1,600 years old is not nothing, so let's stop glibly calling it Jesus Fascism shall we?
@UncleIroh @rohrkrepierer I think there is a movement, popular among fundamentalist Protestants, that could appropriately be called "Jesus Fascism." It's not a theological view, but a political one, which states that the society must be reformed so that their particular church's views are shoved down everyone's throats, with severe consequences for dissenters.
I object to that in particular.
And btw, I object to Cyril and Monophysitism in general. Def wrong. I'm saying something else.
@philosophy @rohrkrepierer
If you have a specific branch of Protestantism in mind when using your own term "Jesus Fascism" then it is helpful to be upfront about that instead of smearing all branches indiscriminately.
Protestantism was wrong when Luther started it in 1517 and it's wrong today.
@UncleIroh @rohrkrepierer It's not a specific sect I don't think. It's a sort of common opinion though...militant Christianity. I'll take a stab at it and say it seems most common among Baptists, Pentacostals, the occasional Catholic, and folks that go to televangelist revivals. I have several family members and their friends who hold this opinion: that the country must be made Christian by the sword, because they're not going to behave otherwise.
@philosophy @rohrkrepierer
And I'm not so naiive as to believe that political forces and agendas had no bearing on the various councils.
Today, there is a globalist push to force a new "Council of Nicaea" with the stated aim of instituting something called "Natural Theology" in place of the 3 problematic traditional Abrahamic relgions. These have caused too much trouble for those after globalist control and so institutional capture has been the in play for decades.