@Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @shortstories @GoonPatrol @multiversal_gangstalker What about Liberation Theology though?

@Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @shortstories @GoonPatrol @multiversal_gangstalker Judeochristianity worry is probably why some of these movements went the secular route (even if later reversing some of those policies) IMO.

@multiversal_gangstalker @shortstories @GoonPatrol @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta Yeah, especially ML types. However it is important to also get to the essence of some of these things. Religion has often been used by the powers that be to enforce the status quo. I don't know if people really would argue that this is always false. However Marx wasn't really obsessed with "proving god doesn't exist" as you'd expect a Atheist to:

Some scholars classify Marx not as a typical "atheist" who is obsessed with proving God doesn't exist, but as a "post-theist" who viewed god-worship as an obsolete stage of history.

@multiversal_gangstalker @shortstories @GoonPatrol @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta Well I "get it" in the sense that you don't really "need" religion to operate a economic and political system. However, I think some of the historical arguments on atheism are a bit dated.

Historical materialism likes to basically think of itself as a science. However, science is neither atheist nor theist in nature. To claim god exists or doesn't exist is a immaterial question. You would first have to define god (something that is probably impossible in a diverse society) and find ways of measuring if god exists or not. These are not scientific questions so therefore it would be a mistake for a modern Marxist to claim to be either atheist or a theist if they are trying to be true to their principles. I think part of this is that atheism meant something a little different before than it does today. More on this here:

@multiversal_gangstalker @GoonPatrol @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @shortstories

I don’t see how “atheism” is “lack of belief“ - as the word clearly means “not-God-ism”.

While I’m no Protestant, the general “tone and timbre” of American Christianity, while starkly divided, was actually doing pretty darn bangin at ordering societies up until the 20th Century

Even if it were true that the OT were ahistorical (a claim I highly doubt), it misses the point entirely.

The OT was written centuries before the Incarnation of Christ, and was positively stuffed with Messianic Prophecy that wasn’t fulfilled until hundreds of years after all the authors had died. No merely-human agency at any level could possibly pull that off. That’s its actual significance

That’s not at all what it’s like; nobody human could possibly have steered events like the God-Man being born in a specific town, to a specific virgin. One doesn’t get to decide things like that about their own birth.

Yeah I don’t know what to tell you. Shepherds and peasants and fishermen don’t really have a lot of ability to steer the sorts of narratives that rulers pay to have written down

Pretty sure we’re talking past each other; I’m referring to OT Messianic Prophecy

I’m not sure I understand why you’re claiming to know so much about “Kabbalah” being sourced “word-for-word” from the “Torah”. Are you an authority on jewish mysticism ?

This is a fun discussion and I’ll get back to it when I get the chance; not blowing it off or anything 😆

So please set me straight if I’m missing something. You’re arguing roughly that:

The Messianic Prophecies of the OT are an elaborate, kabbalistic sort of shell-game, with the Gospel writers penning their “fulfillment” in a largely fictional account around a man being called “Jesus Christ”.

That this was the ultimate aim of the writers of the specific Prophecies - to which they employed many tricks and puns in order to project their intention centuries into the future, where they figured they’d be “unlocked”.

Am I missing anything here ?

Okay, I’m not going to deny any of that, at all. I’m totally open to the possibility that Isaiah, say, was “forecasting” certain things through “kabbalistic” word-and-number play - which the Gospel Writers seven-hundred or so years later “decoded” - illuminating them as to how properly to ”fulfil the Prophecy” with their fictional account of the God-Man Jesus Christ. Sure, why not ?

So, by now, because it’s already been “decoded”, it should be pretty easy to find a few examples, right ? Do you happen to know of any ? Sincere question: what was the specific forecast and how was it fulfilled ?

Surely there must be many of these. In fact I know of a few off the top of my head.

@thefinn @Sovereign @zeke @GoonPatrol @James_Dixon @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd

Numerology is not logical for physics and chemistry predictions

Numerology does not enable you to understand what will happen based on physics

Numerology is a language to send secret messages to specific individuals that know the code without the rest of the public that sees the message understanding the intended meaning

@thefinn @Sovereign @zeke @GoonPatrol @James_Dixon @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd

How can you claim to know so much about the Kabballah but so little about numerology

Are you telling me the Kabballah is nkt full of numerology

@thefinn @shortstories @Sovereign @zeke @GoonPatrol @James_Dixon @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd

What would anyone "do" with it? Isn't it just some kind of jewish mysticism?