Even when explaining the Jews - the Jews WROTE THE OLD TESTAMENT.
Do you not think it's reasonable to ask where they got this information and how they decided upon it?
But they never look into how the Jews do things. And consider it all "divine" when it's not. It was a bunch of Jews sitting around arguing until they all decided someone had won the argument. The entire jewish religion starts out with Abraham arguing with god and "winning the argument".
This is the basis for their whole religion - this is your old testament. It has nothing to do with divine beings from the sky.
Even if it were true that the OT were ahistorical (a claim I highly doubt), it misses the point entirely.
The OT was written centuries before the Incarnation of Christ, and was positively stuffed with Messianic Prophecy that wasn’t fulfilled until hundreds of years after all the authors had died. No merely-human agency at any level could possibly pull that off. That’s its actual significance
That's like saying "That last domino can't possible fall just because someone pushes over the first domino."
That’s not at all what it’s like; nobody human could possibly have steered events like the God-Man being born in a specific town, to a specific virgin. One doesn’t get to decide things like that about their own birth.
Yeah I don’t know what to tell you. Shepherds and peasants and fishermen don’t really have a lot of ability to steer the sorts of narratives that rulers pay to have written down
Pretty sure we’re talking past each other; I’m referring to OT Messianic Prophecy
So you might want to get interested in how they decided what was in the Torah, and what they mean by "God"
I’m not sure I understand why you’re claiming to know so much about “Kabbalah” being sourced “word-for-word” from the “Torah”. Are you an authority on jewish mysticism ?
I called them "Kabbalah Jews"
I didn't say it was sourced from the torah, I said the OT was.
And I'm reasonably well versed in some of the Kabbalah, enough to know it's a system, and that yeah, you can engineer systems to fall like dominos as you see fit.
So if the OT was sourced from the Jews, you might want to work out how they came about those things. And it was because of the arguments the rabbis use to do everything they do.
This is a fun discussion and I’ll get back to it when I get the chance; not blowing it off or anything 😆
So please set me straight if I’m missing something. You’re arguing roughly that:
The Messianic Prophecies of the OT are an elaborate, kabbalistic sort of shell-game, with the Gospel writers penning their “fulfillment” in a largely fictional account around a man being called “Jesus Christ”.
That this was the ultimate aim of the writers of the specific Prophecies - to which they employed many tricks and puns in order to project their intention centuries into the future, where they figured they’d be “unlocked”.
Am I missing anything here ?
However, through Kabbalah you can harness energy in particular ways to use to manipulate people, yes. And the Kabbalah is itself a macrocosmic system of logic as well.
This is where you get your Nostradamus's, etc. It's not magical, it's logical.
Like, in retrospect, if we created electricity, would AI become the logical conclusion?
Keep in mind they created the movie Metropolis (with the thinking robot) back in the early 1900's. Is this not a logical conclusion we could surmise from actions taken in the past?
Kabbalah is the same thing but on a very human level. I'm sure there's tonnes of it I know little about, but that's the way it is supposed to work.
Okay, I’m not going to deny any of that, at all. I’m totally open to the possibility that Isaiah, say, was “forecasting” certain things through “kabbalistic” word-and-number play - which the Gospel Writers seven-hundred or so years later “decoded” - illuminating them as to how properly to ”fulfil the Prophecy” with their fictional account of the God-Man Jesus Christ. Sure, why not ?
So, by now, because it’s already been “decoded”, it should be pretty easy to find a few examples, right ? Do you happen to know of any ? Sincere question: what was the specific forecast and how was it fulfilled ?
Surely there must be many of these. In fact I know of a few off the top of my head.
It is in some ways - very biblical.
God is within you and all around you. <- it takes this very seriously.
If god is logic, why not do the logic inside yourself? This is the root of Kabbalah.
It's not some devil worship or something. I wouldn't suggest that kind of thing.
It's certainly not Christian - I'll give you that. But this is also why I had a rant the other week about my suspicious nature of Hitler and was talking about inflection points - I'm talking about the logic of it all.
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Numerology is not logical for physics and chemistry predictions
Numerology does not enable you to understand what will happen based on physics
Numerology is a language to send secret messages to specific individuals that know the code without the rest of the public that sees the message understanding the intended meaning
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How can you claim to know so much about the Kabballah but so little about numerology
Are you telling me the Kabballah is nkt full of numerology
I don't practice it.
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What would anyone "do" with it? Isn't it just some kind of jewish mysticism?
As far as I can tell, kabbalah is just one of many in the jews’ bag of tricks to hoodwink the gullible goyim
You were the fucker going on about mystical nonsense that can't really be proven earlier. "I believe because I believe"
And that's not flimflam?
I've seen shit that would make you question reality itself, but I don't believe in people levitating and climbing the walls. Not without proof. And the proof should be easily gotten, but we don't because <reasons>. And that's not good enough.
Yeah, that's something I'd pretty much have to see with my own eyes. I haven't experienced anything like that, and I don't know what to make of people who say that they have.
It's not a protestant thing. Like ok, just get me some video. Half the world will fucking come and be baptised. But they don't.?!?!
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Hmong people told me things were levitating when they worked with demon possessed people
If you talk to either Hmong Christians or Hmong Animists they will tell you supernatural sounding stories
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I actually _have_ heard about supernatural things from people in iceland. Yet... the common factor is... it's always stories, it's never repeatable, and it never happens in the vicinity of scientific equipment, and of course, I've never seen anything myself.
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So for me, I consider it nothing but stories until empirical evidence is presented, at which point, it becomes an interesting investigation into the unknown.
All that is left is the experience itself. If that experience is strange enough, happens often enough, in different ways, and in such a way that other, more natural explanations fail (as it did with me and those with me), you are left with profound information you are incapable of adequately sharing with others. It can be frustrating, and ultimately, very isolating. I no longer expect anyone to believe what we saw and experienced. I rarely even bother telling anyone about it. I have to be content in knowing that it actually happened, and that that knowledge makes me even more alone than normal.
Really, it's better for you if you never have such an experience. Part of me envies you. Your world is more normal, more predictable than mine.
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Incorrect. Fire, electricity, thunder, lightning, some forms of mental illness, there's millions of phenomena that are repeatable, that have been explained through repeatable experiments and so on.
I'm aware that certain electromagnetic emissions can cause the brain to feel certain ways, to feel a presence that isn't there, perhaps even see things. Again, what happened to us happened in different areas of the house, at different times. If a bad circuit somewhere in the walls was messing with our brains, it would have tended to happen in one area, not throughout the house, front and back yards. The nighttime incidents were unlikely to be sleep paralysis because the people who saw things standing besides their beds often managed to get up, walk around the bed, and approach the thing before it vanished. There's also the fact that people would see similar things in the day time while wide awake. We ate different things at different times, so moldy bread couldn't have been the cause, nor drugs or drinking, because I at the very least didn't indulge in those things.
Occasionally the blender on the kitchen counter would start all by itself, spinning away on puree, without the benefit of being plugged in. This happened at least four different times. The two women in the house insisted countertop appliances be unplugged when not in use. When the thing started, there were anywhere from 1 to 4 people in the kitchen. It wasn't a brief little whirr. It would stay on for nearly 2 minutes. I, like the others that experienced it, took the time to make sure it was in fact unplugged. When it happened to me, i took the time to follow the plug, make sure it wasn't jacked into the wall, then I kept pushing the off button. It didn't respond, It just kept buzzing away.
It would go on far too long to be the result of a build up of static electricity. If it were a result of a short circuit, then why would it work normally when it was plugged in?
I am not someone who simply excepts the most supernatural explanation for things, not right off the bat. I was careful the entire time to remember the circumstances of it all, then try to eliminate every plausible, normal explanation I could think of. Things like this are exceedingly rare; I never experienced things like it again. But I know they do happen.
Science is the best tool we have to explore and understand the physical world. Religion is the best tool we have to explore and understand the spiritual and moral world. It is silly to throw away the one tool because it isn't useful in dealing with a problem it was never meant to address. Science is invaluable. Modern society can't exist without it. But it can not tell you if an action is moral or immoral. It can not tell you good from evil. And it can not help people understand things that exist beyond the physical.
Like I said, I don't actually expect you to believe me. What I do hope is that you eventually understand is that science, pure reason backed by testing the physical environment, can not tell you everything there is to know. It is a very important tool, but a tool that only fixes certain problems, not all problems.
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"I never experienced things like it again." I think this is key here. As for religion, it has value as a psychological comfort blanket. But it has nothing to do with world.
All evidence we have has taught us that there is nothing supernatural, no gods, no demons, so insisting on these things is literally doing
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I very much like your kindness and empathy, so if, and only if, you are interested, I will share my private email with you (if so, send me a private message), and I will explain my position in depth. Mastodon is a horrible medium for this. I would be interested inr your view of the world, but there is close to zero
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chance, that I will be persuaded to accept anything besides physicalism, and believe me, 100s if not 1000s of people have tried, so I no longer see any new arguments (and not in this thread either, it is just the same boring flawed arguments).
Yeah man, you’re plenty correct within your walled garden. While it strikes many of us as very very gay, you really don’t have to worry about that as it’s safely beyond your ontological bounds.
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violence to ones rational self. As a species, and homo sapiens, we should know beter by know. Many do know better, but many don't and I will continue to educate them.
When it comes to ethics and morals, that is handled absolutely fine by philosophy. But this question was about the world and what exists in it.