That's like saying "That last domino can't possible fall just because someone pushes over the first domino."
That’s not at all what it’s like; nobody human could possibly have steered events like the God-Man being born in a specific town, to a specific virgin. One doesn’t get to decide things like that about their own birth.
Yeah I don’t know what to tell you. Shepherds and peasants and fishermen don’t really have a lot of ability to steer the sorts of narratives that rulers pay to have written down
Pretty sure we’re talking past each other; I’m referring to OT Messianic Prophecy
So you might want to get interested in how they decided what was in the Torah, and what they mean by "God"
I’m not sure I understand why you’re claiming to know so much about “Kabbalah” being sourced “word-for-word” from the “Torah”. Are you an authority on jewish mysticism ?
I called them "Kabbalah Jews"
I didn't say it was sourced from the torah, I said the OT was.
And I'm reasonably well versed in some of the Kabbalah, enough to know it's a system, and that yeah, you can engineer systems to fall like dominos as you see fit.
So if the OT was sourced from the Jews, you might want to work out how they came about those things. And it was because of the arguments the rabbis use to do everything they do.
This is a fun discussion and I’ll get back to it when I get the chance; not blowing it off or anything 😆
So please set me straight if I’m missing something. You’re arguing roughly that:
The Messianic Prophecies of the OT are an elaborate, kabbalistic sort of shell-game, with the Gospel writers penning their “fulfillment” in a largely fictional account around a man being called “Jesus Christ”.
That this was the ultimate aim of the writers of the specific Prophecies - to which they employed many tricks and puns in order to project their intention centuries into the future, where they figured they’d be “unlocked”.
Am I missing anything here ?
However, through Kabbalah you can harness energy in particular ways to use to manipulate people, yes. And the Kabbalah is itself a macrocosmic system of logic as well.
This is where you get your Nostradamus's, etc. It's not magical, it's logical.
Like, in retrospect, if we created electricity, would AI become the logical conclusion?
Keep in mind they created the movie Metropolis (with the thinking robot) back in the early 1900's. Is this not a logical conclusion we could surmise from actions taken in the past?
Kabbalah is the same thing but on a very human level. I'm sure there's tonnes of it I know little about, but that's the way it is supposed to work.
Okay, I’m not going to deny any of that, at all. I’m totally open to the possibility that Isaiah, say, was “forecasting” certain things through “kabbalistic” word-and-number play - which the Gospel Writers seven-hundred or so years later “decoded” - illuminating them as to how properly to ”fulfil the Prophecy” with their fictional account of the God-Man Jesus Christ. Sure, why not ?
So, by now, because it’s already been “decoded”, it should be pretty easy to find a few examples, right ? Do you happen to know of any ? Sincere question: what was the specific forecast and how was it fulfilled ?
Surely there must be many of these. In fact I know of a few off the top of my head.
It is in some ways - very biblical.
God is within you and all around you. <- it takes this very seriously.
If god is logic, why not do the logic inside yourself? This is the root of Kabbalah.
It's not some devil worship or something. I wouldn't suggest that kind of thing.
It's certainly not Christian - I'll give you that. But this is also why I had a rant the other week about my suspicious nature of Hitler and was talking about inflection points - I'm talking about the logic of it all.
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Numerology is not logical for physics and chemistry predictions
Numerology does not enable you to understand what will happen based on physics
Numerology is a language to send secret messages to specific individuals that know the code without the rest of the public that sees the message understanding the intended meaning
@thefinn @Sovereign @zeke @GoonPatrol @James_Dixon @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd
How can you claim to know so much about the Kabballah but so little about numerology
Are you telling me the Kabballah is nkt full of numerology
I don't practice it.
@thefinn @shortstories @Sovereign @zeke @GoonPatrol @James_Dixon @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd
What would anyone "do" with it? Isn't it just some kind of jewish mysticism?
As far as I can tell, kabbalah is just one of many in the jews’ bag of tricks to hoodwink the gullible goyim
You were the fucker going on about mystical nonsense that can't really be proven earlier. "I believe because I believe"
And that's not flimflam?
I've seen shit that would make you question reality itself, but I don't believe in people levitating and climbing the walls. Not without proof. And the proof should be easily gotten, but we don't because <reasons>. And that's not good enough.
Yeah, that's something I'd pretty much have to see with my own eyes. I haven't experienced anything like that, and I don't know what to make of people who say that they have.
It's not a protestant thing. Like ok, just get me some video. Half the world will fucking come and be baptised. But they don't.?!?!
@zeke @h4890 @Sovereign @GoonPatrol @James_Dixon @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn
Hmong people told me things were levitating when they worked with demon possessed people
If you talk to either Hmong Christians or Hmong Animists they will tell you supernatural sounding stories
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I actually _have_ heard about supernatural things from people in iceland. Yet... the common factor is... it's always stories, it's never repeatable, and it never happens in the vicinity of scientific equipment, and of course, I've never seen anything myself.
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So for me, I consider it nothing but stories until empirical evidence is presented, at which point, it becomes an interesting investigation into the unknown.
All that is left is the experience itself. If that experience is strange enough, happens often enough, in different ways, and in such a way that other, more natural explanations fail (as it did with me and those with me), you are left with profound information you are incapable of adequately sharing with others. It can be frustrating, and ultimately, very isolating. I no longer expect anyone to believe what we saw and experienced. I rarely even bother telling anyone about it. I have to be content in knowing that it actually happened, and that that knowledge makes me even more alone than normal.
Really, it's better for you if you never have such an experience. Part of me envies you. Your world is more normal, more predictable than mine.
@Charles_in_Charge @shortstories @Sovereign @zeke @GoonPatrol @James_Dixon @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn
Incorrect. Fire, electricity, thunder, lightning, some forms of mental illness, there's millions of phenomena that are repeatable, that have been explained through repeatable experiments and so on.
@Charles_in_Charge @shortstories @Sovereign @zeke @GoonPatrol @James_Dixon @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn
I do understand your yearning for god and meaning in life, and that requires, for some people, the belief in ghosts and spirits, and from a pragmatic point of view, this is ok. it gives you please, a feeling of superiority over "scientists" and a deep convition that there is "something else".
@Charles_in_Charge @shortstories @Sovereign @zeke @GoonPatrol @James_Dixon @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn
But the scientific facts remain, there is no god, demons, or supernatural, since no one has ever presented empirical proof of it.
Freud taught us that religion is a mental illness, or something similar to the appendix, psychologically speaking, so it
And there you go again. This is a logical fallacy known as argument from ignorance (argumentum ad ignorantiam) or an appeal to ignorance.
What is real does not require proof to exist. It already is. It merely remains for it to be discovered.
Did Antarctica not exist before we discovered it? Did magnets not exist before we discovered them? Did protons and electrons not exist before we discovered them?
If gods, demons, or the supernatural exist, they exist independently of your empirical truth. You can argue you will not believe in their existence until it is proven. You cannot argue they do not exist.
> Freud taught us that religion is a mental illness, or something similar to the appendix, psychologically speaking
Freud didn't teach us anything but that he suffered from several mental illnesses himself.
@James_Dixon @shortstories @Sovereign @zeke @Charles_in_Charge @GoonPatrol @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn
Incorrect. At some point, complete agnosticism becomes ridiculous which Russells teapot shows us. If there is no empirical evidence, for 1000s of years, from 8 billion people, it does not exist.
if you show me repeatable empirical evidence, that can be tested in a laboratory, I will change my mind.
I haven't made any positive claim. You have.
I haven't claimed the supernatural exists. You've claimed it doesn't.
I've said that if it does exist it exists whether it's proven to your satisfaction or not. Which is obviously true.
@James_Dixon @shortstories @Sovereign @zeke @Charles_in_Charge @GoonPatrol @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn
I have not made any positive claims beyond the empirically proven facts of science.
There was someone ravings about ghosts and demons, maybe it wasn't you, and those threads are lost in time like tears in rain.
if something exists without any evidence, or especially, without being part of the physical world,
@James_Dixon @shortstories @Sovereign @zeke @Charles_in_Charge @GoonPatrol @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn
we can safely disregard it until evidence is presented.
Yeah man, exactly. All these people talking about the sky being blue are raving lunatics - and it can safely be dismissed until evidence of its existence is presented.
You have claimed something does not exist. It's up to you to prove its non-existence.
@James_Dixon @shortstories @Sovereign @zeke @Charles_in_Charge @GoonPatrol @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn
Are you mad? Clearly you have no clue about science. You provide proof for a positive claim, the burden of proof is on you.
Go back to school boy and return when you are educated.
The only positive claim I've made at this point is that you're a lying faggot.
And that is demonstrated by your own posts.
Remember this next time you hear him prattle about something else, like covid. This is his version of science in a nutshell:
"real science is when it agrees with me, fake and gay science is when it doesn't"
ie he's not just downstream of some of the dumbest wellness grifters in history, but severely locked into his ignorance. He's also got meta-problems of why he's incapable of changing since he doesn't see himself as responsible for his own actions, so there's no moral imperative for him to do *anything*. Lack of self-correction from an epistemology standpoint, lack of self-correction from science + a bunch of ignorant, dangerous beliefs = he is one of the worst examples of weaponized stupidity you'll find online.
@jeffcliff @shortstories @Sovereign @zeke @Charles_in_Charge @GoonPatrol @James_Dixon @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn
Amen, and thank you for the warning!
I stopped listening to him a while ago, and now I'm just triggering him a little bit for my own pleasure.
But when god and the supernatural is questioned, people who built their identity around it always go bananas. It is sad, but very common.
Tbh walled gardens serve a valuable function; we just can’t expect anything both new and useful from them.
In my case, it’s “fun” having a replica of what I’d have thought of something from before 2007 or so, without having to sully myself 
Probably simple incompetence on your part, Jeff, like so many other things.
@James_Dixon @h4890 @Sovereign @zeke @Charles_in_Charge @GoonPatrol @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn @jeffcliff
Jeff never takes his oven mitts off even while typing online or is that a different Jeff
First I’ve heard that one
I have mountains of empirical evidence of Intentionality, which I acquired in a strenuous five-year research project. I’m not going to doxx myself in some fools‘ errand of convincing stubborn internet personalities, in hopes it will satisfy a burden of proof that they clearly and obviously don’t want. Free Will; it‘s one of those things that, whether you believe or don’t believe it exists, you’re correct.
@KingOfWhiteAmerica @shortstories @Sovereign @zeke @Charles_in_Charge @GoonPatrol @James_Dixon @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn
If you don't publish, I cannot take you seriously. If you publish, if it is peer reviewed, replicated, then we're in business. if not, please don't talk. It is just waste of time.
Sure man; I’ll totally just stop talking to anyone else about things we honestly perceive simply because you deny their existence 😂
@KingOfWhiteAmerica @shortstories @Sovereign @zeke @Charles_in_Charge @GoonPatrol @James_Dixon @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn
I do deny it, if we're talking about nature. if you talk about poetry sure, go for it. but that's a different game and not related to the original question.
I remain convinced there will come a time when the nature of Bodiless Powers will be indisputable. Presently, the only apparatus capable of perceiving them in any meaningful sense is certain sensitive organisms, including some humans. I strongly suspect the newly rising Scientific paradigm will begin to grapple with these questions in earnest.
The present evidence at my disposal suggests that’s the current trajectory.
@KingOfWhiteAmerica @shortstories @Sovereign @zeke @Charles_in_Charge @GoonPatrol @James_Dixon @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn
Well, if that happens, if the machinery is developed, or science is advanced, I will change my mind. Until than, I remain unconvinced. After all, there is now law that forbids changing ones mind in light of new evidence. I would, in fact, argue, that this is essential for good science.
@h4890 @KingOfWhiteAmerica @Sovereign @zeke @Charles_in_Charge @GoonPatrol @James_Dixon @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn
Peer Reviewed textbooks do not count but only Peer Reviewed Journal articles because textbooks look at a history of many studies where as Peer Reviewed Journals let's you keep up with the latest fad and act like you are better than the Old Ideas that have been replicated many times
So quarks never existed until 1968? Do you realize exactly how stupid you sound?
> if you show me repeatable empirical evidence, that can be tested in a laboratory, I will change my mind.
I'm not trying to convince you the supernatural exists. I'm trying to explain to you that whether it's proven to exist to your satisfaction has no bearing on whether it exists or not.
@James_Dixon @shortstories @Sovereign @zeke @Charles_in_Charge @GoonPatrol @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn
Have a look at instrumentalism. Quarks is just our language way of talking about numbers. It is a way to express our models of the world.
You can also look at constructie empiricism as well.
Phlogiston also existed, according to science, until it didn't. instrumentalism and/or
@James_Dixon @shortstories @Sovereign @zeke @Charles_in_Charge @GoonPatrol @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn
constructive empiricism solves this problem beautifully.
But now I'm getting tired of your ad hominems and insults. You are clearly the nigger here!
Good. Go fuck yourself, liar.
@James_Dixon @shortstories @Sovereign @zeke @Charles_in_Charge @GoonPatrol @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn
Look, the little homo just woke up! 😎
Says "just woke up". And he claims he's the logical one here. 😆
Kill yourself, faggot.
It’s really misplaced faith in the establishment on display; the truth is the truth, independently of whether or not the Ivory Tower has approved of it. Trusting the Sciencists to represent authentic objectivity rather than their own material interests is the height of absurd foolishness. It’s idolatry plain and simple, dressed in a lab coat.
@Snidely_Whiplash @shortstories @Sovereign @zeke @Charles_in_Charge @GoonPatrol @James_Dixon @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn
Nope. See previous post. Study a bit of science and you can come back to the game.
Keep in mind that snidely_whiplash isn't interested in truth at all, purely the perception of things
"perception is all that matters - we just convince people that $x the cause of all the problems and that'll be that"
this is how he operates - he is purely PR/gaslighting/manipulating people he talks to and if you treat him as being interested in truth at all sooner or later he's going to catch you in his (perhaps randomly levels of convincing) lies. ie he's interested in convincing the public of $x not whether $x is true for any $x. He knows he lies, and he's ok with his lying -- he should be treated no differently than a LLM, really -- incapable of 'learning science' because that's not how he works
@jeffcliff @shortstories @Snidely_Whiplash @Sovereign @zeke @Charles_in_Charge @GoonPatrol @James_Dixon @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn
Ahh... that's a good point! Yes, maybe I should stop now. After all, I do have a business to run so there is only so much time I can allow mastodon to take from me.
Maybe you should have stopped some time ago.
> After all, I do have a business to run
An Indian scamming call center doesn't count as a business.
Even @Charles_in_Charge @shortstories @Sovereign @zeke @GoonPatrol @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker might be salvagable (not by me, but in principle). That's definitely going to be an uphill battle though.
@Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @Snidely_Whiplash @James_Dixon are just lost causes though and not to be expected to actually change
( @thefinn is probably somewhere in between the last 2 groups, not sure)
Keep in mind that Jeff Cliff wouldn't recognize the truth if you printed it out, wrapped it around a baseball bat, and broke the bat over his head.
@James_Dixon @shortstories @Sovereign @zeke @Charles_in_Charge @GoonPatrol @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn
You make hte positive claim so the burden of proof rests on you.
You have not presented any empirical evidence, therefore what you claim does not exist as far as I am concerned.