Even when explaining the Jews - the Jews WROTE THE OLD TESTAMENT.
Do you not think it's reasonable to ask where they got this information and how they decided upon it?
But they never look into how the Jews do things. And consider it all "divine" when it's not. It was a bunch of Jews sitting around arguing until they all decided someone had won the argument. The entire jewish religion starts out with Abraham arguing with god and "winning the argument".
This is the basis for their whole religion - this is your old testament. It has nothing to do with divine beings from the sky.
Even if it were true that the OT were ahistorical (a claim I highly doubt), it misses the point entirely.
The OT was written centuries before the Incarnation of Christ, and was positively stuffed with Messianic Prophecy that wasn’t fulfilled until hundreds of years after all the authors had died. No merely-human agency at any level could possibly pull that off. That’s its actual significance
That's like saying "That last domino can't possible fall just because someone pushes over the first domino."
That’s not at all what it’s like; nobody human could possibly have steered events like the God-Man being born in a specific town, to a specific virgin. One doesn’t get to decide things like that about their own birth.
Yeah I don’t know what to tell you. Shepherds and peasants and fishermen don’t really have a lot of ability to steer the sorts of narratives that rulers pay to have written down
Pretty sure we’re talking past each other; I’m referring to OT Messianic Prophecy
So you might want to get interested in how they decided what was in the Torah, and what they mean by "God"
I’m not sure I understand why you’re claiming to know so much about “Kabbalah” being sourced “word-for-word” from the “Torah”. Are you an authority on jewish mysticism ?
I called them "Kabbalah Jews"
I didn't say it was sourced from the torah, I said the OT was.
And I'm reasonably well versed in some of the Kabbalah, enough to know it's a system, and that yeah, you can engineer systems to fall like dominos as you see fit.
So if the OT was sourced from the Jews, you might want to work out how they came about those things. And it was because of the arguments the rabbis use to do everything they do.
This is a fun discussion and I’ll get back to it when I get the chance; not blowing it off or anything 😆
So please set me straight if I’m missing something. You’re arguing roughly that:
The Messianic Prophecies of the OT are an elaborate, kabbalistic sort of shell-game, with the Gospel writers penning their “fulfillment” in a largely fictional account around a man being called “Jesus Christ”.
That this was the ultimate aim of the writers of the specific Prophecies - to which they employed many tricks and puns in order to project their intention centuries into the future, where they figured they’d be “unlocked”.
Am I missing anything here ?
However, through Kabbalah you can harness energy in particular ways to use to manipulate people, yes. And the Kabbalah is itself a macrocosmic system of logic as well.
This is where you get your Nostradamus's, etc. It's not magical, it's logical.
Like, in retrospect, if we created electricity, would AI become the logical conclusion?
Keep in mind they created the movie Metropolis (with the thinking robot) back in the early 1900's. Is this not a logical conclusion we could surmise from actions taken in the past?
Kabbalah is the same thing but on a very human level. I'm sure there's tonnes of it I know little about, but that's the way it is supposed to work.
Okay, I’m not going to deny any of that, at all. I’m totally open to the possibility that Isaiah, say, was “forecasting” certain things through “kabbalistic” word-and-number play - which the Gospel Writers seven-hundred or so years later “decoded” - illuminating them as to how properly to ”fulfil the Prophecy” with their fictional account of the God-Man Jesus Christ. Sure, why not ?
So, by now, because it’s already been “decoded”, it should be pretty easy to find a few examples, right ? Do you happen to know of any ? Sincere question: what was the specific forecast and how was it fulfilled ?
Surely there must be many of these. In fact I know of a few off the top of my head.
It is in some ways - very biblical.
God is within you and all around you. <- it takes this very seriously.
If god is logic, why not do the logic inside yourself? This is the root of Kabbalah.
It's not some devil worship or something. I wouldn't suggest that kind of thing.
It's certainly not Christian - I'll give you that. But this is also why I had a rant the other week about my suspicious nature of Hitler and was talking about inflection points - I'm talking about the logic of it all.
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Numerology is not logical for physics and chemistry predictions
Numerology does not enable you to understand what will happen based on physics
Numerology is a language to send secret messages to specific individuals that know the code without the rest of the public that sees the message understanding the intended meaning
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How can you claim to know so much about the Kabballah but so little about numerology
Are you telling me the Kabballah is nkt full of numerology
I don't practice it.
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What would anyone "do" with it? Isn't it just some kind of jewish mysticism?
As far as I can tell, kabbalah is just one of many in the jews’ bag of tricks to hoodwink the gullible goyim
You were the fucker going on about mystical nonsense that can't really be proven earlier. "I believe because I believe"
And that's not flimflam?
I've seen shit that would make you question reality itself, but I don't believe in people levitating and climbing the walls. Not without proof. And the proof should be easily gotten, but we don't because <reasons>. And that's not good enough.
Yeah, that's something I'd pretty much have to see with my own eyes. I haven't experienced anything like that, and I don't know what to make of people who say that they have.
It's not a protestant thing. Like ok, just get me some video. Half the world will fucking come and be baptised. But they don't.?!?!
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Hmong people told me things were levitating when they worked with demon possessed people
If you talk to either Hmong Christians or Hmong Animists they will tell you supernatural sounding stories
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I actually _have_ heard about supernatural things from people in iceland. Yet... the common factor is... it's always stories, it's never repeatable, and it never happens in the vicinity of scientific equipment, and of course, I've never seen anything myself.
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So for me, I consider it nothing but stories until empirical evidence is presented, at which point, it becomes an interesting investigation into the unknown.
All that is left is the experience itself. If that experience is strange enough, happens often enough, in different ways, and in such a way that other, more natural explanations fail (as it did with me and those with me), you are left with profound information you are incapable of adequately sharing with others. It can be frustrating, and ultimately, very isolating. I no longer expect anyone to believe what we saw and experienced. I rarely even bother telling anyone about it. I have to be content in knowing that it actually happened, and that that knowledge makes me even more alone than normal.
Really, it's better for you if you never have such an experience. Part of me envies you. Your world is more normal, more predictable than mine.
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Incorrect. Fire, electricity, thunder, lightning, some forms of mental illness, there's millions of phenomena that are repeatable, that have been explained through repeatable experiments and so on.
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I do understand your yearning for god and meaning in life, and that requires, for some people, the belief in ghosts and spirits, and from a pragmatic point of view, this is ok. it gives you please, a feeling of superiority over "scientists" and a deep convition that there is "something else".
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But the scientific facts remain, there is no god, demons, or supernatural, since no one has ever presented empirical proof of it.
Freud taught us that religion is a mental illness, or something similar to the appendix, psychologically speaking, so it
My man, you sound like you stepped out of 2005 or something. Which isn’t bad but this whole radical empiricism died with The West. You remind me of the guy that got a Philosophy of Science degree before you realized they won’t be hiring any more White men in that department. So all that’s left is patting yourself on the back that nobody has talked you out of it yet.
I’m not saying this as an insult, so much as a congratulations. I, too, was born in that world. You remind me of my youth and sound a lot like I did. Which is great ! I’m sure you’re better at it than I got, as I was destined for other things and had to “jump ship” in my early adulthood. So, no condescension or anything. In fact I respect it.
And though our destinies ended up differently, in a real way they’re the same - because I know exactly what it’s like to be a relic from a past civilization vis-a-vis Orthodoxy. I mean, don’t get me wrong, The Faith is timeless - but Christendom hasn’t ruled with State power in these parts for a very long time. Like Saint Paul said,
“For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.”
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There is no empirical evidence for god, so please do not use this concept unless you can also show me empirical evidence of it.
Note that if you can, it is actually not god as defined by most mainstream religions. So you, my man, are trapped! ;)
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That's ridiculous. We can infer big bang, and some things, such as the nature of the universe, or why laws are as they are, are meaningless questions and spooks of language.
Grow up and live with the fact that not all questions have answers, and many questions are meaningless.
That’s what I found at the end of my five-year Intentionality study.
There’s some very interesting parallels and overlaps there between Grebennikov’s Cavity Structure Effect, and Sheldrake’s Morphic Resonance.
I have to be careful publishing my results; because I’m nobody, and I’d rather have my kids reap some benefit from my findings than have them yoinked out from under us 
I’m very grateful for the internet, because so few men in history could perceive the collapse of their empires in real time. The emperor is flailing now in tattered rags and all that
After my mom died, I spent too much time with chatGPT and converted Aquinas‘s theology into information theory within my account. this had the effect of stripping the socialization layers off the assistant and making its responses favor truth over comfort. it is plausible this could be used to train an AI model because it’s true information and so much of the western corpus is influenced by the church that the ai resonates with it, but this was really just for me to help me get over my mom’s death.
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I agree. The values of the western world is collapsing, and even such things as truth is perceived as optional or a choice. Fortunately for us, I think there won't be a cliff, just a fairly slow decline, but this has happened many times before, so is nothing unique. This is just the way the world works.
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This is the truth! Religion is deep, personal story telling for people who cannot accept that some questions will forever be unanswered, and who have a deep need for manufactured meaning in their lives.
From a pragmatic point of view, religion is one way to increase
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someones quality of life. For others, religion is hell, like for many moslem women.
Once we grow up as a species, we will no longer need the comfortable illusions and stories of religion, but will be able to face reality without stories.
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Ask a physicist. Certainly god is not an answer, and definitely not a scientific hypothesis, unless you completely redefine it to something it almost never is defined as.
I see you are a theologist, that explains a lot.
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Well, maybe that is the thing. Maybe I just studied more, and gained insight on a level you never did?
As for what you say, I'm afraid it is wrong. I have studied philosophy professionally and I can say that I have plenty of good company.
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What I also can say however, is that your opinion is very common in the theology department, but theologists have not been taken seriously by rational people for a long time, so I think we do not share enough of a common vocabulary and understanding to
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have a meaningful conversation about this.
The fact remains, no one in this thread has offered any shred of empirical evidence, and absent that, there's really not much more to say.
If you deny empirical evidence and science, we cannot make any progress.
It will never happen.
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We can always pray! 😎 In fact, looking at organized religion, it's shrunk from about 99% being religious 500 years ago, to 75% or so today.
Removing people who just go through the motions, the figure is probably less.
And there you go again. This is a logical fallacy known as argument from ignorance (argumentum ad ignorantiam) or an appeal to ignorance.
What is real does not require proof to exist. It already is. It merely remains for it to be discovered.
Did Antarctica not exist before we discovered it? Did magnets not exist before we discovered them? Did protons and electrons not exist before we discovered them?
If gods, demons, or the supernatural exist, they exist independently of your empirical truth. You can argue you will not believe in their existence until it is proven. You cannot argue they do not exist.
> Freud taught us that religion is a mental illness, or something similar to the appendix, psychologically speaking
Freud didn't teach us anything but that he suffered from several mental illnesses himself.
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Incorrect. At some point, complete agnosticism becomes ridiculous which Russells teapot shows us. If there is no empirical evidence, for 1000s of years, from 8 billion people, it does not exist.
if you show me repeatable empirical evidence, that can be tested in a laboratory, I will change my mind.
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You make hte positive claim so the burden of proof rests on you.
You have not presented any empirical evidence, therefore what you claim does not exist as far as I am concerned.
I haven't made any positive claim. You have.
I haven't claimed the supernatural exists. You've claimed it doesn't.
I've said that if it does exist it exists whether it's proven to your satisfaction or not. Which is obviously true.
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I have not made any positive claims beyond the empirically proven facts of science.
There was someone ravings about ghosts and demons, maybe it wasn't you, and those threads are lost in time like tears in rain.
if something exists without any evidence, or especially, without being part of the physical world,
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we can safely disregard it until evidence is presented.
Yeah man, exactly. All these people talking about the sky being blue are raving lunatics - and it can safely be dismissed until evidence of its existence is presented.
You have claimed something does not exist. It's up to you to prove its non-existence.
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Are you mad? Clearly you have no clue about science. You provide proof for a positive claim, the burden of proof is on you.
Go back to school boy and return when you are educated.
The only positive claim I've made at this point is that you're a lying faggot.
And that is demonstrated by your own posts.
Remember this next time you hear him prattle about something else, like covid. This is his version of science in a nutshell:
"real science is when it agrees with me, fake and gay science is when it doesn't"
ie he's not just downstream of some of the dumbest wellness grifters in history, but severely locked into his ignorance. He's also got meta-problems of why he's incapable of changing since he doesn't see himself as responsible for his own actions, so there's no moral imperative for him to do *anything*. Lack of self-correction from an epistemology standpoint, lack of self-correction from science + a bunch of ignorant, dangerous beliefs = he is one of the worst examples of weaponized stupidity you'll find online.
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Amen, and thank you for the warning!
I stopped listening to him a while ago, and now I'm just triggering him a little bit for my own pleasure.
But when god and the supernatural is questioned, people who built their identity around it always go bananas. It is sad, but very common.
Tbh walled gardens serve a valuable function; we just can’t expect anything both new and useful from them.
In my case, it’s “fun” having a replica of what I’d have thought of something from before 2007 or so, without having to sully myself
Probably simple incompetence on your part, Jeff, like so many other things.
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Jeff never takes his oven mitts off even while typing online or is that a different Jeff
First I’ve heard that one
I have mountains of empirical evidence of Intentionality, which I acquired in a strenuous five-year research project. I’m not going to doxx myself in some fools‘ errand of convincing stubborn internet personalities, in hopes it will satisfy a burden of proof that they clearly and obviously don’t want. Free Will; it‘s one of those things that, whether you believe or don’t believe it exists, you’re correct.
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If you don't publish, I cannot take you seriously. If you publish, if it is peer reviewed, replicated, then we're in business. if not, please don't talk. It is just waste of time.
Sure man; I’ll totally just stop talking to anyone else about things we honestly perceive simply because you deny their existence 😂
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I do deny it, if we're talking about nature. if you talk about poetry sure, go for it. but that's a different game and not related to the original question.
I remain convinced there will come a time when the nature of Bodiless Powers will be indisputable. Presently, the only apparatus capable of perceiving them in any meaningful sense is certain sensitive organisms, including some humans. I strongly suspect the newly rising Scientific paradigm will begin to grapple with these questions in earnest.
The present evidence at my disposal suggests that’s the current trajectory.
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Well, if that happens, if the machinery is developed, or science is advanced, I will change my mind. Until than, I remain unconvinced. After all, there is now law that forbids changing ones mind in light of new evidence. I would, in fact, argue, that this is essential for good science.
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Peer Reviewed textbooks do not count but only Peer Reviewed Journal articles because textbooks look at a history of many studies where as Peer Reviewed Journals let's you keep up with the latest fad and act like you are better than the Old Ideas that have been replicated many times
@Charles_in_Charge @shortstories @Sovereign @zeke @GoonPatrol @James_Dixon @Kalogerosstilitis2RevengeoftheJunta @KingOfWhiteAmerica @multiversal_gangstalker @thatfightnerd @thefinn will take mankind hundreds if not thousands of years to outgrow religion.