@basedbagel I often find they deflect when confronted with that thinking. Tjey take rational structured reasonings as 'What Ifs' saying that just because one thing leads to another is a 'what if' despite statistical/observable reality showing that x leads to y consistently or that abstracting out is faaar too complicated.
Frustrating as hell when just showing that things don't have to have happened already to be happening or be headed towards an outcome.