I see arguments of this form from Christian Nationalists a lot:
1. If we were Christian, we would ban {a bunch of things like feminism}.
2. We really want to ban those things since they're bad.
3. Therefore, we should force Christianity on folks.
This is an affirming the consequent fallacy.
Further, we don't need to force this religion to ban bad things. Christianity, as history has shown, also brings its own bad things.
You're arguing against straw men claims that CN's never make.
Christian nationalism is not a theocracy, nor does it advocate for one. It advocates for basing law on a Christian moral framework because laws are simply moral "ought" claims, not just "I want because .. feels".
We supposedly already have that, since the legal system is based on the Byzantine Justinian Code, but that's being dismantled at record pace as you're seeing in real time.
As the 20th century experiments in communism and the current day West clearly demonstrates, moral frameworks cannot be derived from secularism.
That’s different than forcing belief or church attendance which is absurd.
The biggest single indictment of this is the fact that under secular morality, literally no Western society is able to reproduce itself.
The other part that is often missed is that this is largely Orthodox Christian in origin.
Protestanism has failed. Catholicism is failing before our very eyes. Both are considered heresies from the Ortho perspective, and this 1000-year argument is now at the "I told you so" stage.
Orthodoxy is based in Byzantium Empire, & since it's fall, has thrived on a decentralized model of church nationalism - Greek, Russian, Syriac etc.. that shares power with the state.
Not a theocracy.
"moral frameworks cannot be derived from secularism."
Say it again!
You 'can't run a society off of subjective morality. There must be some objective standard or we're wasting our time.
@basedbagel @UncleIroh How is Christian ethics not subjective? Unless you already believe the metaphysics, it's just as made up and subjective as any secular ethics.
Now you're getting it. Yes, of course I believe in the metaphysics. And the epistemology, ontology and of course the ethics.
So do secularists but they're usually either too dumb or dishonest to admit/see it.
They use words like best, good, progress, sufering without realizing that these are massive metaphysical claims. They want these words to do the load-bearing of their worldview without any metaphysical justification.
@UncleIroh @basedbagel Well, and here's why Buddhism is outright superior. It has a metaphysics but its central claims have nothing to do with shit humans made up and then want to claim are objective (metaphysics, epistemology and ethics all fall under that). There's nothing false required in Buddhism. Christianity rests on nonsense that a 10 year old that figures out there is no Santa Clause can see through, because it's the same thing if it doesn't have social force behind it.
Buddhism is nihilistic. It has contributed a lot to the mechanics of introspection and has a good set of virtue ethics. However, it all comes to naught since it is ultimately grounded in material cause and effect consequentialism via the bullshit concept of karma.
No great empire was or could ever be built on the literal self-negation of Buddhism.
@UncleIroh @basedbagel Buddhism is not nihilistic. Nihilism is the idea there is no purpose to life. Buddhism establishes a clear purpose, which is enlightenment. It's literally the opposite of nihilistic. Further, karma is not the end "thing" of Buddhism. Enlightenment is.
This shit is old. You're arguing for a specific conclusion you want and trying to form facts surrounding it. This is such a common theme with conversations with Christians: they warp every other worldview, deliberately.
@UncleIroh @basedbagel By this argument, Christianity is self-negation and nihilism just as much. Its goal is to get to heaven, and its logical conclusion is that after the rapture, humans will no longer physically exist on Earth.
It's abundantly clear that you really don't understand Christianity at all.
Not even a bit.
Christ is the living God and we are His children. We are given life's blessing and commanded to bring forth more life in His name.
Christianity is the MOST life-affirming religion as can be seen by historical birth-rates. The religious give birth to far more children than secularists, who murder and sterlize theirs, as is their Satanic wont.
@UncleIroh @basedbagel My entire point is you don't understand Buddhism, and I used your exact argument against you. You fell for it perfectly. I know full well I've twisted Christianity using word magic; my point is that you did the exact same thing with Buddhism.
This is the most consistent experience I have of Christians: you never understand other worldviews. Your misunderstanding is very deliberate, biased, and tiresome.
My account of Buddhism is accurate, truthful and entirely consistent with their stated consequentialist beliefs.
Whatever gotcha you think you have scored lives in your head.
Show me where the Christianity touched you ..
If you were as rational as you like to believe you are and stopped indulging in hate-boner straw-man arguments, and actually studied this stuff in good faith, even you .. yes even you, could understand.
Jesus patiently awaits.
@UncleIroh @basedbagel The second picture sort of makes my point. Christian values are so seeped into our culture that they have to be the foundation for all our current issues. They're too baked in not to be.
I don't really have a hate boner for Christianity. I love Bernadette Roberts and put her in my top 2 spiritual authors.
Look, I'm certainly indulging in some aggressive conversation tonight. I'll grant that. (continued)
@UncleIroh @basedbagel But the bottom line I have with Christianity is that it's based on a bunch of metaphysical nonsense that's completely unnecessary. You can have a morality without it. In fact, the focus on the metaphysics really detracts from the whole thing.
Not only that, but there's superior options. Buddhism is based on the truth as you can see for yourself, not based on a "trust me bro" epistemology. There's simply superior options here.
@philosophy @UncleIroh @basedbagel what you are referring to is called dispensational premillenialism. It is a surprisingly modern interpretation adopted by American baptists due to the idea being promoted in the Schofield reference bible. >99% of Christians do not, and have never believed in this.
Appreciate the added clarification. I couldn't recall the precise heresy he was referring to.
Rapture theology/premillennialism is not the defacto view of Christianity and is rather recent and mostly American. It isn't a cycle though where souls escape via one-way valve or are otherwise trapped in reincarnation.
@philosophy @basedbagel
Buddhism's purpose to "lived life" is work towards enlightenment such that rebirth no longer happens.
Life itself according to them is proof of our defilement by attachment.
The logical conclusion of their worldview is a world where humans no longer physically exist because they have transcended to a unification with an enlightened universal Oneness.
Buddhism is self-negation and nihilism. GTFO with that nonsense.