@white_male @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @BowsacNoodle

You pay factory workers in Asia manufacturing electronic goids in bags of rice

They can trade rice for electronic goods they want to purchase or they can eat it

@shortstories @white_male @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW >Boy it sure would be nice if I could carry all my bags of rice to the market and still have room for my family and things I want to buy... maybe if I could somehow have a miniature piece of paper that says how much rice I have at home, and we could settle things behind the scenes?
Cool we have currency again.

@shortstories @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @BowsacNoodle Cool, cool, now exchange rice for chemicals and other stuff that's worth between 1000:1 and 100:1 in weight to rice. Do it for hundred items. Said factory would gather all the rice, rising it's price and effectively making rice the fiat currency, the new gold.

@white_male @shortstories @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW Here's how your gold would look if it were Black or Chinese.

@white_male @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @BowsacNoodle

I do not have a problem with gold because you can make tools to use out of gold

If you take a gold coin and change the words and numbers printed on it but it has the same mass it is worth the same amount

If you change the words and numbers printed on paper money but it has the same mass then it's value changes

Does the ink or the paper make it valuable. Is it worth more if more ink is printed on the same paper to make the number bigger?

@shortstories @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @BowsacNoodle >Does the ink or the paper make it valuable. Is it worth more if more ink is printed on the same paper to make the number bigger?
Yes, that's the social contract. The thing white people do, ingenious solutions for making life easier.

@white_male @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @BowsacNoodle

If there ever was a explicitly written social contract that would be the constituition

People make up imaginary unwritten social contracts that society must follow whenever they want you to do something that violates the constituition

Clearly social contracts are fictions people use to trick people into doing what they want without having explicit rules they are accountable for to give as a reward in exchange for the obedience they request

@shortstories @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @BowsacNoodle >Clearly social contracts are fictions
I call it abstraction, but yeah. So what? It works even if you consider it ridiculous.

@white_male @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @BowsacNoodle

Social Security was a social contract

@shortstories @white_male @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW >Social Security was a social contract
Actually it was fiat. 😔

@BowsacNoodle @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @white_male

Social contracts are fiat

@shortstories @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @white_male Maybe. Although sometimes they arise out of mutualism, pragmatism, or other positive means rather than despotism or other negative virtues.

@BowsacNoodle @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @white_male

Social contracts used to justify government policies that I do not like are fiat

@shortstories @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @white_male >Social contracts used to justify government policies that I do not like are fiat
based.

@shortstories @white_male @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW The piece of paper isn't the value. it's the promise of value enforced by the state. you're trading in strength of the government (stability, current and future prospects / GDP, threat of imprisonment and ability to enforce said threats, etc.) when you use fiat. This is known. The question of whether or not that OUGHT TO be valid is not the same as whether or not IT IS valid today. You're missing the is/ought distinction IMO.

muh dik?? :weep:

@BowsacNoodle @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @white_male

The value enforced by the State comes from taxes

Because taxes can only be paid exclusively in money

People need money to pay taxes in order for violence not to be done with them

Hence the value of money comes from the ability to trade it with the givernment in order to not go to jail

@shortstories @BowsacNoodle @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW Nah, we gave you earlier examples of rice becoming the dominant trade good and effectively the new currency. You're just ass mad you can eat bills and coins.

@shortstories @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @white_male >Hence the value of money comes from the ability to trade it with the givernment in order to not go to jail
Yes. I have been saying that since I joined this conversation, however that's only a supplemental to the convenience it creates. I have nothing against bag-o-grainism, conceptually, but I am not blind to its faults.

@BowsacNoodle @shortstories @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @white_male
Guys, you gotta brush out on the history of fiat money. Originally it was a simple securities contract (certificate of deposit) of a determined amount of gold/silver.
So even when using fiat money, what was being traded was gold stored in the vault that the holder could claim back at any branch of that bank.
Fiat money as we know today is not money barely a currency, it's not even paper anymore. It's just a number on a ledger.

@Zeb @shortstories @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @white_male We all get it dude. I am saying that the transformation has happened, and that arguing whether it should or shouldn't have happened is not the same thing as arguing whether or not it happened (it did).

@Zeb @BowsacNoodle @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @white_male

But they issued out more weight in gold in the total value promised in paper money than there was actual gold in the bank which was fraud

That is why I mentioned about simply changing the ink configuration on paper money to change it's trade value even though it was the same amount of paper

@shortstories @BowsacNoodle @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @white_male
True, agree. The fraud was the problem and the bankers (specially central ones) should have been hanged on the spot.

@Zeb @BowsacNoodle @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @white_male

In order to get around this fraud I suggest in the future alternate currencies should only be things you would be content with being stuck with if no one would trade for them

So that both people only get things they would want in the trade

@Zeb @shortstories @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @white_male Tell me if you fellas know, what would happen if a larger foreign entity started hoarding your nation's currency if it was 1:1 backed by physical gold/silver? At what point would the effects be noticed? Suppose said non-fiat country used a note or something else impervious to forgery (humor me), but the guarantee was there and ledgered. What would happen to that nation and its stability? Would they or would they not create an alternative currency out of necessity? Could they actually print new notes if existing notes were lost? How would they know?

@BowsacNoodle @shortstories @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @white_male
I didn't get it. Why would a country with a gold-backed currency hoard a debased foreign fiat currency?
They would sell most of the foreign shit currencies since their currency is already stably anchored against gold.

@Zeb @shortstories @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @white_male 'Goldtopia' or whatever we want to call the fictional country in this thought experiment, has issued notes and they're backed by e.g. gold. At some point, their notes become treated as a substitute for a commodity on the world market, do they not? Functionally, 'goldtopia' has a better version of GLD or any other gold based ETF, because theoretically they're not charging fees for this. How could they, after all?

@BowsacNoodle @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @white_male

So I hope the government prints so much money

That people conclude money has no value

Then they stop using money & stop paying taxes

@shortstories @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @white_male I mean, yeah. That's the reason to have alternative currencies. Among other things. 🙃

@BowsacNoodle @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @white_male

Well I would suggest the best alternate currencies are things that would have value if no one decided to trade with you for them in the future

This would include food
Materials that people want to make tools out of
Defensive Weapons
& other Tools

If no one would have a use for something other than trading it for things then it is not a good alternative currency

That is why electronic currency is not a good alternative currency

@shortstories @Tfmonkey @VeganMGTOW @white_male There is a time and place for specific things. When food is plentiful, it becomes less valuable. Or when there's too much, people used to make things from it to extract additional value (brewing spirits) from the reduced market price. At some point, possibly during our lifetime, food will be a currency again.