Even if it were true that the OT were ahistorical (a claim I highly doubt), it misses the point entirely.

The OT was written centuries before the Incarnation of Christ, and was positively stuffed with Messianic Prophecy that wasn’t fulfilled until hundreds of years after all the authors had died. No merely-human agency at any level could possibly pull that off. That’s its actual significance

Of course it can be pulled off.

That's like saying "That last domino can't possible fall just because someone pushes over the first domino."

That’s not at all what it’s like; nobody human could possibly have steered events like the God-Man being born in a specific town, to a specific virgin. One doesn’t get to decide things like that about their own birth.

Yeah, they did, because these are narratives being presented within the context of things the narrators could not have witnessed.

Yeah I don’t know what to tell you. Shepherds and peasants and fishermen don’t really have a lot of ability to steer the sorts of narratives that rulers pay to have written down

That would presuppose the lack of a pre-existing oral tradition, which given that the apostles are mostly working-class illiterates, would dismantle the concept of apostolic tradition. I'll trust that's not what you meant to do, because that would be blasphemy to Orthodoxy.

Pretty sure we’re talking past each other; I’m referring to OT Messianic Prophecy

Which came from a bunch of Kabbalah Jews - which 'word for word' come out of the Torah.

So you might want to get interested in how they decided what was in the Torah, and what they mean by "God"

I’m not sure I understand why you’re claiming to know so much about “Kabbalah” being sourced “word-for-word” from the “Torah”. Are you an authority on jewish mysticism ?

I never said that, reread it.

I called them "Kabbalah Jews"

I didn't say it was sourced from the torah, I said the OT was.

And I'm reasonably well versed in some of the Kabbalah, enough to know it's a system, and that yeah, you can engineer systems to fall like dominos as you see fit.

So if the OT was sourced from the Jews, you might want to work out how they came about those things. And it was because of the arguments the rabbis use to do everything they do.

This is a fun discussion and I’ll get back to it when I get the chance; not blowing it off or anything 😆

No never talk to me or my son again.

So please set me straight if I’m missing something. You’re arguing roughly that:

The Messianic Prophecies of the OT are an elaborate, kabbalistic sort of shell-game, with the Gospel writers penning their “fulfillment” in a largely fictional account around a man being called “Jesus Christ”.

That this was the ultimate aim of the writers of the specific Prophecies - to which they employed many tricks and puns in order to project their intention centuries into the future, where they figured they’d be “unlocked”.

Am I missing anything here ?

I don't know about the bible itself - probably so - I know writing can manifest these things in people.

However, through Kabbalah you can harness energy in particular ways to use to manipulate people, yes. And the Kabbalah is itself a macrocosmic system of logic as well.

This is where you get your Nostradamus's, etc. It's not magical, it's logical.

Like, in retrospect, if we created electricity, would AI become the logical conclusion?

Keep in mind they created the movie Metropolis (with the thinking robot) back in the early 1900's. Is this not a logical conclusion we could surmise from actions taken in the past?

Kabbalah is the same thing but on a very human level. I'm sure there's tonnes of it I know little about, but that's the way it is supposed to work.

Okay, I’m not going to deny any of that, at all. I’m totally open to the possibility that Isaiah, say, was “forecasting” certain things through “kabbalistic” word-and-number play - which the Gospel Writers seven-hundred or so years later “decoded” - illuminating them as to how properly to ”fulfil the Prophecy” with their fictional account of the God-Man Jesus Christ. Sure, why not ?

So, by now, because it’s already been “decoded”, it should be pretty easy to find a few examples, right ? Do you happen to know of any ? Sincere question: what was the specific forecast and how was it fulfilled ?

Surely there must be many of these. In fact I know of a few off the top of my head.

It's not just word and number play.

It is in some ways - very biblical.

God is within you and all around you. <- it takes this very seriously.

If god is logic, why not do the logic inside yourself? This is the root of Kabbalah.

It's not some devil worship or something. I wouldn't suggest that kind of thing.

It's certainly not Christian - I'll give you that. But this is also why I had a rant the other week about my suspicious nature of Hitler and was talking about inflection points - I'm talking about the logic of it all.

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Numerology is not logical for physics and chemistry predictions

Numerology does not enable you to understand what will happen based on physics

Numerology is a language to send secret messages to specific individuals that know the code without the rest of the public that sees the message understanding the intended meaning

Yeah I've never gotten into numerology.

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How can you claim to know so much about the Kabballah but so little about numerology

Are you telling me the Kabballah is nkt full of numerology

I don't DO Kabbalah, but I've been a victim of it, and read up on it and understand both from being a target and what I've read on it.

I don't practice it.

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What would anyone "do" with it? Isn't it just some kind of jewish mysticism?

As far as I can tell, kabbalah is just one of many in the jews’ bag of tricks to hoodwink the gullible goyim

That's what black magic is though: cultivating the favor of negative spiritual beings, who are inherently deceptive, so that you can more effectively flimflam your fellow man.

I mean just listen to this shit.

You were the fucker going on about mystical nonsense that can't really be proven earlier. "I believe because I believe"

And that's not flimflam?

I didn't mean it that way (I believe simply because I believe). It took me a long time - most of my life - to come to the conclusion that demons are real, and in large part because I've had strange demonic experiences myself. I rarely talk about this kind of thing because most people believe, as you do, that it's all crank nonsense. I know it irritates the hell out of you. It used to have the same effect on me, but I changed my mind, and I know that I'll never be able to prove what I now believe.

I don't believe it's crank nonsense depending upon the context.

I've seen shit that would make you question reality itself, but I don't believe in people levitating and climbing the walls. Not without proof. And the proof should be easily gotten, but we don't because <reasons>. And that's not good enough.

" ...people levitating and climbing the walls."

Yeah, that's something I'd pretty much have to see with my own eyes. I haven't experienced anything like that, and I don't know what to make of people who say that they have.

THAT is my sticking point.

And we're talking Catholic priests and shit saying this stuff.

It's not a protestant thing. Like ok, just get me some video. Half the world will fucking come and be baptised. But they don't.?!?!

Yeah, I was just going to say that I've only ever heard Catholic priests make those kinds of claims.

I think I've heard one other group, but I cannot remember who it was.

I've talked to protestant deliverance ministers who claim to have delivered people from demonic oppression, and they all told me that nothing like levitation/climbing walls ever happens during their deliverance sessions. According to them, the afflicted person may experience bodily tremors, fits of coughing, or bouts of spontaneous tears/crying, but nothing physics defying like you'd see in a horror movie.

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Hmong people told me things were levitating when they worked with demon possessed people

If you talk to either Hmong Christians or Hmong Animists they will tell you supernatural sounding stories

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I actually _have_ heard about supernatural things from people in iceland. Yet... the common factor is... it's always stories, it's never repeatable, and it never happens in the vicinity of scientific equipment, and of course, I've never seen anything myself.

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So for me, I consider it nothing but stories until empirical evidence is presented, at which point, it becomes an interesting investigation into the unknown.

The very nature of the phenomena means it can not be repeated, or even really anticipated so a person can set up measuring equipment. Even if you captured something on video, it would be discounted as fake or some misinterpreted natural occurrence. It would be the same thing if someone somehow recorded strange electro-magnetic readings or some other kind of evidence.

All that is left is the experience itself. If that experience is strange enough, happens often enough, in different ways, and in such a way that other, more natural explanations fail (as it did with me and those with me), you are left with profound information you are incapable of adequately sharing with others. It can be frustrating, and ultimately, very isolating. I no longer expect anyone to believe what we saw and experienced. I rarely even bother telling anyone about it. I have to be content in knowing that it actually happened, and that that knowledge makes me even more alone than normal.

Really, it's better for you if you never have such an experience. Part of me envies you. Your world is more normal, more predictable than mine.

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Incorrect. Fire, electricity, thunder, lightning, some forms of mental illness, there's millions of phenomena that are repeatable, that have been explained through repeatable experiments and so on.

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I do understand your yearning for god and meaning in life, and that requires, for some people, the belief in ghosts and spirits, and from a pragmatic point of view, this is ok. it gives you please, a feeling of superiority over "scientists" and a deep convition that there is "something else".