@KingOfWhiteAmerica Hey, I see you're Orthodox. Does that mean Eastern Orthodoxy? I have some questions you may have the answer to, either way. Are they futurist / dispensationalists? If I had a different eschatological perspective than what the church teaches, I would not really be accepted, right? I heard that they even somewhat distanced themselves from Eastern Orthodox people who use different calendars.
@reallyangry @RoninGrey Orthodoxy has Jurisdictions, rather than denominations - organized along ethnic national lines. That’s a big part of the appeal to me tbh.
@reallyangry @RoninGrey Right right; the name “Orthodox” itself means “correct worship”, reflecting the idea that our highest priority is The Faith we received from the Apostles, which they received from God. First and foremost we’re a Communion of Faith. We’ve got all kinds of reasons for this. At Babel, Our Lord organized Man along ethnic national lines - for Man’s survival (like when He made clothes for Adam and Eve - but on a world-scale). We uphold this - but recognizing the The Faith, the “reversal of Babel” - that is, God’s own plan for reunifying all Men.
@reallyangry They're all Judeo doomsday cults. They all want to believe Israel is their holy land, they all want a messiah to appear to rule the nations (every knee shall bow). They all want to be the true Jews. They all oppose white European faith systems (which they call paganism). They are all very obvious controlled opposition.
The patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church threatened to expel brother Nathanael for making anti-Jewish videos and thinks the West is Satan.
@KingOfWhiteAmerica So, great example you brought up, so let's use that: preterism --if I were a partial preterist, would most "jurisdictions" say I had to renounce it? Or just not teach it? How would that work? Would they go as far as to call me heretical?
@RoninGrey Of course, I’m not your Father Confessor, so my answers cannot hold any authority over you - so it exists in the hypothetical. From what I can tell, it would depend upon the specifics of what you believe regarding End Times. Some parts of our eschatology could very well be called “partial-preterism” iirc. Others, not so much. We could consider whether or not you believe the quotes from the Creed. If you struggle with those, I’m guessing you’ll have a struggle with your Father Confessor. Apologies that I’m less well-versed with partial-Preterism than I used to be; I considered myself that during most of my “Protestant Interlude”. I liked Hank Hanegraaf’s take quite a bit.
@KingOfWhiteAmerica From whay you said before, I wouldn't have a problem with that creed. I believe Christ will return for the judgement and the God and Magog battle. I believe Armaggedon has already happened, along with the "Tribulation" and Beast, and a literal 1,000-year reign. So I maybe would interpret what the creed is saying differently, not sure. Obviously I believe in the resurrection of the dead, in an eternal kingdom, etc.
@KingOfWhiteAmerica I think (I know) I struggle with submitting to leadership when I believe they're wrong. Whether I'm in Orthodoxy or Protestantism, I need to learn better humility. But I'm likely better able to hold these different, "crazy" beliefs without problem in my current Non-denominational Protestant church.
@RoninGrey @KingOfWhiteAmerica Are you a Short Season Bro?
@N_Y_SparkyOxCable @KingOfWhiteAmerica 
Yes. I always had considered preterist ideas myself even before I knew what it was called. Thanks to YouTube blowing up and things like TikTok, we can all communicate easily about theories, discoveries, and research.
But yes, I think I'm landing on Short Season eschatology as the most likely. I'm glad to see dispensationalism and futurists called out lately. They're running out of time for their belief to be possible. We'll see when the last Boomer dies.
@RoninGrey @KingOfWhiteAmerica I have seen some Bros trying to distance themselves from the P word. But people will find one thing wrong with one person or belief and assume everyone believes exactly the same so they dismiss everything.
@RoninGrey Dispensationalists are the death cult TFM talks about. And unfortunately the majority of protestantism these days. All corrupted by Jews. It's infuriating. I've also seen Short Season Bros even using the same terminology to describe it. Many of the show's messages are leaving our small group and being heard by other individual thinkers.
@N_Y_SparkyOxCable I've never heard us called "Short Season Bros." before. Doesn't quite have the same ring to it as other theological beliefs, but I like it. But the shortened "S.S." Bros might mean something different (especially to Jew-lovers).
@RoninGrey I’ll go from that; from abt 2010-2013, I saw no reason to doubt the idea that the Destruction of the Temple in AD 70, was prophesied in Revelation, and constituted St. John’s primary intended audience. Why not ? Upon becoming Orthodox, I came to find that’s not really current in the Church; Holy Tradition holds a generally later date - perhaps AD 95. So, I changed my mind. Personally, I cannot say for sure whether your priest would excommunicate you over believing the earlier date; some may, some may not. It is in the realm of possibility. As such, the general Orthodox approach is to obey your Father Confessor and Bishop.
@KingOfWhiteAmerica I believe Christ literally did return (at least one more visit is coming), as He told his disciples, in many of their lifetimes. Just like the Jews expected the Messiah would come and physically deliver them at his one-and-only visit, they were mistaken about the timeline of events. I believe we, too, will find ourselves mistaken about quite a bit in how we understood prophecy.
That said, the expectation I experience in Orthodoxy is to replace one’s own personal opinions, with teachings arrived at upon perusing the Lives of the Saints. Often, the Orthodox position is found in great sermons delivered by St. John Chrysostom, or even more often the Prayers and Hymns sung in Church Services. On no small number of occasions I had to update on the fly while singing in the Choir.
Lex Orandi, lex Credendi
@KingOfWhiteAmerica Thanks for the help, brother. Like the heart of my pastor, I'm really trying to just be part of the solution instead of causing more trouble to people around me from what many Christians in the past have done. I wish you well.
@RoninGrey Hey you’re welcome ! The Faith is a journey, from my experience; sometimes a walk through the woods, other times straggling away from a terrible shipwreck. I don’t know at all who is where, but I believe in trajectory. Lord have mercy on Thy suffering servants
@RoninGrey @KingOfWhiteAmerica This was a great conversation to read after the fact. Orthodoxy has all kinds of interesting nooks to explore, so I am learning more and more. The communities I've encountered are also stronger than any Protestant group I've encountered, save for the Anabaptists like the Mennonites and the Amish.
@KingOfWhiteAmerica @DoubleD @RoninGrey
I can't tell you guys how great it is to see more men in this space becoming Orthodox enquirers.
@UncleIroh @DoubleD @RoninGrey Wholly completely agree. In my case it was more like Orthodoxy found me, and above all I was surprised by it; a few times, tbh. The first time I went and looked it up (on Wikipedia), I was surprised to discover it’s actually as Trinitarian as I am; I guess I’d just assumed it was something weird. But I found myself mildly shocked I was agreeing point by point with everything I read. I was already attached to a congregation though, and filed it away into the “interesting trivia” brain-box.
@KingOfWhiteAmerica @DoubleD @RoninGrey @UncleIroh Late to the thread; there's good stuff here, but I'm not familiar with any of this history or sermons. Raised Presbyterian, but haven't found a church that resonates with me. Is there an Orthodox primer you'd recommend for reading?
@RegalBeagle @KingOfWhiteAmerica @DoubleD @RoninGrey @UncleIroh I second this request.
I’d first recommend “An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith” by St. John of Damascus.
https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf209.iii.iv.i.i.html
I recommed praying first; then just devouring it, and highlighting anything you think is “weird” or “off”. Then, I recommend reading a more modern / contemporary book like Clark Carlton’s *The Faith* and see if any of your highlights come up in that book. It often does a good job with clarifying what may amount to a cultural misunderstanding or whatnot.
A popular old “industry standard” is *The Orthodox Church* by Bp. Timothy Kallistos Ware; but only if you can find a first or second edition because it went downhill each time they released it.
If you’ve been out of The Word for a while, just start with Clark Carlton’s *The Faith*. It’s mostly harmless
@KingOfWhiteAmerica @DoubleD @N_Y_SparkyOxCable @RegalBeagle @UncleIroh That's great, man. Thank you.
@RoninGrey @KingOfWhiteAmerica
https://web.archive.org/web/20160303175944/http://nestorian.org/
Clicking on a series of things leading to finally click on
Unofficial Home Page of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Used to lead to this chart plus a written description of each denomination
I could no longer find it in the more recent website version & it is very difficult to find in the archived version because it is accessed through a series of menus but the link does not change to be different than the homepage in the end
@RoninGrey @KingOfWhiteAmerica
So basically there were what were called Ecumenical councils in which assigned people voted on what is true
When one group disagreed with how another group voted sometimes there was a Church Split
Each group has a list of councils and if you do not agree with the councils historic decisions you might be considered not a part of the Church
But many people simply do not know all the council decisions to be able to say they disagree & still call themself a member
@RoninGrey @KingOfWhiteAmerica
The Denomination under Pope Francis did not exist until 1870 or later approximately
Before then people were free to believe the Pope was not infallible
After Vatican 1 there was a new decision that the Pope is infallible
New Catholics believe the Pope is not an antipope and the pope is infallible
Old Catholics believe the Pope is not infallible and or the Pope is an antipope
@RoninGrey @KingOfWhiteAmerica
Church of the East, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox and Old Catholics never claimed the Pope was infallible
Many or all of them claimed the ecumenical council process of group voting was infallible but the Pope as a sole individual was not infallible
If you want to know what a specific group believes you have to examine their council votes they list as binding and read the texts in regards to the groups I mentioned
@shortstories @RoninGrey Yeah I disagree with the chart of course; from my perspective, we’re the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, with the Latins aka “Roman Catholic Church” breaking away in the 11th Century. This is of course an Ecclesiological consideration; just what constitutes “The Church”, and why.
@KingOfWhiteAmerica @RoninGrey
The Chart gives you an idea of when these denominations started to exist
If a road is shaped like a Y either of the 2 split branches could arbitrarily be given the same name as the singular branch they split from or they could both be given a different name
There was no distinction between the 2 branches before the vote in which the split occurred
Thus I would argue that both denominations were created by the split & neither existed before the split
@shortstories @RoninGrey Simply calling them “denominations” is a mistake from my perspective; that sort of distinction makes sense in Protestantism, but not in Orthodoxy. We are organized along ethnic national lines. A better word from our perspective is “Communions”.
@shortstories @RoninGrey Thus, the ”Lutheran Communion,” the “Anglican Communion”, the “Roman/Latin Communion“, the “Eastern Orthodox Communion” etc works a lot better - as it affirms a real, ontological divide between these Ecclesial bodies.
@shortstories @RoninGrey This may seem “nit-picky” but it really isn’t at all, to us. We actually believe these things. By receiving Communion in one of these Communions, we are affirming that we subsume our entire selves to the Faith held by that Communion. It’s no small deal.
@RoninGrey @KingOfWhiteAmerica
Unless the first seven ecumenical councils as listed by Eastern Orthodox say you have to believe or not believe in a specific eschatological claim then you can believe or not believe whatever you want about those eschatological claims and still be considered a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church if you meet the other membership qualifications as far as I know
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_seven_ecumenical_councils
It must be understood though; the whole Orthodox approach to the very question of “authority” is often quite distinct from Western views. The Latin Communion in Rome seem to think in terms of “will not believing this make me go to hell after I die?” By contrast, Orthodox Christians are more immediately concerned with the healing of the soul, cleansing from sin and its effects, that sort of thing. We think of Church more like a hospital, than an attorney. To me the Orthodox take makes more sense, and resonates better with the Gospel Narrative.
While “futurist” may be flexible enough to include the range of Orthodox eschatology, we are most certainly not dispensationalists. There really isn’t an exact Protestant-sourced term that exactly captures our Faith, as far as I’m aware. We believe (from the Creed) Lord Jesus “will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom will have no end.” Also, “we look for the Resurrection of the Dead; and the life of the Age to Come.”
The New Testament also contains many teachings we take at face-value. When He comes again in Glory, “every knee shall bow.” There will be no question in *anyone’s* mind what‘s happening. As lightning strikes from the East to the West, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be when He comes on the Cloud on His Great and Terrible Day.
We don’t accept the teaching of a “pre-Tribulation Rapture”. Rather that the dead will rise to meet The Lord in the air (as per the oft-cited Thessalonians reference).
While we accept a certain symbolic fulfillment of the various Prophecies have at times occurred, we are not Preterists. Some things have not been completely fulfilled; some things are indeed “being fulfilled” as ongoing imminent spiritual realities, constantly manifesting in present circumstances. And yet many other things were at last fulfilled with the Incarnation of Christ. Which exactly are which is a big topic of discussion, beyond the present scope of this comment.
That’s a brief overview of what immediately comes to mind in response to your question. Feel free to ask if you’d like clarification on any points; keep in mind however I hold no spiritual authority over anyone outside my own house; so as usual, ymmv. Consult your Local Orthodox Bishop if you’re looking for such official authority